The following is an archived copy of a message sent to a Discussion List run by the Campaign Against Sanctions on Iraq.
Views expressed in this archived message are those of the author, not of the Campaign Against Sanctions on Iraq.
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I am sorry that some of us have been dragged into a discussion of Hemming's clean little war. This just takes us away from the horrendous real one we have to prevent. In his latest message, Hemming reveals his some of prejudices. He argues that the biggest danger is not in the bombing of the infrastructure (earlier, he was quite explicit about the legitimacy of targetting - massacring - conscript soldiers). He wants to work with those who would bomb the infrastructure, and places himself and his bomber friends in the lofty moral position of preventing Iraqis from savaging each other. Only last week, he was talking about encouraging Iraqis to fight it out among themselves with some laser guided management that is clearly designed to spare the lives of US and British soldiers. It is one thing for decent people to work with the Red Cross and other agencies that try to do humanitarian work in an apolitical a manner as possible, but it is quite another for bomber politicians to be setting the moral tone and blaming it all on the uncivilised others. Spare the decent folk of CASI. Kamil Mahdi >===== Original Message From casi-discuss-request@lists.casi.org.uk ===== >Send CASI-discuss mailing list submissions to > casi-discuss@lists.casi.org.uk > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.casi.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/casi-discuss >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > casi-discuss-request@lists.casi.org.uk > >You can reach the person managing the list at > casi-discuss-admin@lists.casi.org.uk > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of CASI-discuss digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Iraq - what next? (john.hemming@jhc.co.uk) > 2. Re: Iraq - what next? (tim buckley) > 3. New Year's resolution -- Act with 'Great Fortitude' (Glenn Bassett) > 4. Re: Iraq - what next? (john.hemming@jhc.co.uk) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >From: john.hemming@jhc.co.uk >Subject: Re: [casi] Iraq - what next? >Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 16:59:00 PM GMT Standard Time >To: casi-discuss@lists.casi.org.uk >cc: > >In response to Tim Buckley > >Dear Tim, > >We probably don't disagree on as many points as appeared to be the case fro= >m your first Email. > >I am not a pacifist. I would like to see an end to the Ba'th regime. I w= >ould like to see a democratic Iraq. >We are in a world that is getting more and more polarised. I accept that I= > do not go as far as you would like on issues. I also accept that you are = >not asking anyone else to do any more than yourself. > >The difficulty as I see it is that we are in a situation in which unless wo= >rk is done prior to any military action starting then there will be no alte= >rnative to the Bush/Blair mass destruction option. I think it is possible = >to influence that, but part of that process is identifying things that are = >important within that. We are issuing a consultation document at the momen= >t to various people to find out what they think is important. We are then c= >ollating that to bring forward a set of points/proposals. > >That includes (along with other issues) >a) Don't use Depleted Uranium. >b) Don't bomb the Al Jazeera office (cf Kabul). >c) Look for mechanisms to enable the Iraqi armed forces to surrender easily= > rather than be bombed out of existance. >d) Protect people from potential massacres that could result from a power v= >acuum. (we believe that there are people who are at risk of being massacre= >d because of their association with the regime. The opposition are offerin= >g most of them an amnesty, but there needs to be a mechanism for them to su= >rrender to an External (to Iraq) Authority for them to have confidence in t= >heir personal security and that of their families.) >e) Don't bomb civilian infrastructure. > >If anyone has any further suggestions could they please email me with them. > > >Quoting from our consultation paper: >Without question the best approach for Iraq would be one in which Iraq move= >s to democracy without any military action. The Iraqi people have suffered= > enough from both the Ba'th regime and also the actions of Western Nations = >over the past 30 years. That, however, is not a decision for us to make. > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 2 >From: "tim buckley" <tim.buckley@tesco.net> >To: <casi-discuss@lists.casi.org.uk> >Subject: Re: [casi] Iraq - what next? >Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 22:10:33 +0100 > >Dear John, > >irrespective of points upon which we obviously disagree, (pretty obvious by >now I think) I want to make it clear that nothing I said was intended to >criticise efforts to achieve proposals a to e below, which are literally >life and death issues for millions of people. . > >Best wishes, Tim > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <john.hemming@jhc.co.uk> >To: <casi-discuss@lists.casi.org.uk> >Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 5:59 PM >Subject: Re: [casi] Iraq - what next? > > >In response to Tim Buckley > >Dear Tim, > >We probably don't disagree on as many points as appeared to be the case from >your first Email. > >I am not a pacifist. I would like to see an end to the Ba'th regime. I >would like to see a democratic Iraq. >We are in a world that is getting more and more polarised. I accept that I >do not go as far as you would like on issues. I also accept that you are >not asking anyone else to do any more than yourself. > >The difficulty as I see it is that we are in a situation in which unless >work is done prior to any military action starting then there will be no >alternative to the Bush/Blair mass destruction option. I think it is >possible to influence that, but part of that process is identifying things >that are important within that. We are issuing a consultation document at >the moment to various people to find out what they think is important. We >are then collating that to bring forward a set of points/proposals. > >That includes (along with other issues) >a) Don't use Depleted Uranium. >b) Don't bomb the Al Jazeera office (cf Kabul). >c) Look for mechanisms to enable the Iraqi armed forces to surrender easily >rather than be bombed out of existance. >d) Protect people from potential massacres that could result from a power >vacuum. (we believe that there are people who are at risk of being >massacred because of their association with the regime. The opposition are >offering most of them an amnesty, but there needs to be a mechanism for them >to surrender to an External (to Iraq) Authority for them to have confidence >in their personal security and that of their families.) >e) Don't bomb civilian infrastructure. > >If anyone has any further suggestions could they please email me with them. > > >Quoting from our consultation paper: >Without question the best approach for Iraq would be one in which Iraq moves >to democracy without any military action. The Iraqi people have suffered >enough from both the Ba'th regime and also the actions of Western Nations >over the past 30 years. That, however, is not a decision for us to make. > > > >_______________________________________________ >Sent via the discussion list of the Campaign Against Sanctions on Iraq. >To unsubscribe, visit http://lists.casi.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/casi-discuss >To contact the list manager, email casi-discuss-admin@lists.casi.org.uk >All postings are archived on CASI's website: http://www.casi.org.uk > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 3 >From: "Glenn Bassett" <glenn@kcnl.globalnet.co.uk> >To: "Campaign Against Sanctions on Iraq" <casi-discuss@lists.casi.org.uk> >Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 15:24:02 -0000 >Subject: [casi] New Year's resolution -- Act with 'Great Fortitude' > >Hello all. Glenn here. > >In the Guardian of December 31st, a Washington spokesman was quoted as >saying it would require an "act of great fortitude" to prevent the looming >war. > >Sounds like a good New Year's resolution. There are many acts we can choose >from, and if many of us do them, with "great fortitude", we can prevent or >scale down this war, and its inevitably appalling consequences. Hope it's O= >K >to paste some suggestions from the Arrow website below. > >All the best for the new year, > >Glenn. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Public meeting to mark the 12th anniversary of the Gulf War. With >sanctions-breaking auction! >17 January at 7.30pm at Conway Hall, Red Lion Square, London. >Organised by ARROW, Voices and Act Together: Women against Sanctions and Wa= >r >on Iraq. > >Anti-war Conference in Glasgow >18 January from 10.30am at Woodside Halls, Cardonald Street. =A35/=A33. Con= >tact >0141 423 1222. > >DISRUPT THE MASTERS OF WAR at Northwood Base, London >18-19 January. Click here for full details > >Anti war demo in Bradford >18 January 2003 >Demonstration in Bradford in Centenary Sq. Info. > >Tell Your MP - Don't Attack Iraq >Lobby of Parliament and Rally >21 January from 2.30pm and throughout evening. >Prominent figures from many walks of life will join parliamentarians to >speak out against war. >Called by CND and No War on Iraq Liaison, hosted by Alice Mahon MP. Contact >CND on 020 7700 2393. > >National Demo against war on Iraq >15 February, London. >Contact Stop the War Coalition on 020 7053 2155. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------= >- >------ > > > > > > >Regular actions and protests (see pledge contacts for local Pledge of >Resistance groups.) > >London ARROW Anti-war vigil >Drop sanctions - not bombs/No war on Iraq >5.30-7pm every Monday, corner of Whitehall and King Charles Street, London. >Contact ARROW on 020 7607 2302. This vigil has been going 11 years. > >Aldermaston Women's Peace Camp >2nd weekend of each month, at Falcon Gate. Contact Di on 023 8055 4434. > >Bath silent peace vigil >every Saturday 11.30am-12.30pm, outside Bath Abbey (great West door). Email >Judith Eversley or 01225 315 480. > >Birmingham Iraq vigil >5-6pm, 4th Thursday every month and 11am-noon, 2nd Saturday every month, >outside Barclays Bank, New Street. Contact 0121 449 5683. > >Birmingham peace vigil >Every Saturday 12.00-12.30 outside Quaker Meeting House, 23 Watford Road. >Contact Harriet Martin > >Belfast peace vigil >12-1, every Thursday outside Tesco in Royal Avenue. Contact Mark on 0771 51= >1 >0517. > >Bolton peace vigil >Every second Thursday of month on Town Hall Square 5.30-6.30pm, plus >leafleting. Contact Keith Dewhurst > >Bradford peace vigil >4.30-6pm, every Thursday outside the old Odeon cinema and the Alhambra >theatre. Info. >Demonstration in Bradford on January 18th in Centenary Sq. > >Bristol peace vigil >5.30-6.30 Monday-Friday and 3-4pm Saturday, opposite the Hippodrome, city >centre. Bristol Stop the War > >Chepstow peace vigil >Every Thursday 2.15-3.00pm at the war memorial in the town centre. Contact >Margaret Davis > >Chester peace vigil >Every Saturday 12.15-1.15pm outside St Peter's Church, plus leafleting. >Contact Richard Johnson on 0151 339 1392 > >Coventry anti-sanctions, anti-war vigil >5-7pm every Wednesday outside Belgrade Theatre. Contact: 0247 666 3031 > >Gosport vigil against 'war on terrorism' >6-7pm every Friday. Contact Les on 01329 312 553 > >Cambridge vigil for Palestine >11am-1.30pm every Saturday, outside Guildhall in Market Place. Contact Clar= >e >01223 245193 > >Cambridge vigil against war on Afghanistan and Iraq sanctions >12.30-2pm every Saturday outside Guildhall in Market Place. Contact: >Campeace on 01223 359428 > >Cambridge women only silent vigil >1-2pm alternate Fridays and Saturdays, outside Guildhall in Market Place. >Wear black. Contact Women in Black on 0845 458 1688. > >RAF Croughton peace vigil >>From 2pm on Saturdays 30 Nov and 28 Dec with tea at 3pm each time. Contact >Rachael Milling > >Diss peace vigil >Every Friday 11.00-12.00 at the Friends Meeting House, Frenze Road. Contact >Christina van Melzen > >Dorchester peace vigil >First Friday of every month 1.00-1.30pm by The Pump, South Street, plus >leafleting. Contact Lindsey Cook on 0105 259 416 > >Dundee vigil >1-2pm first Saturday every month, outside Overgate Centre, opposite Boots. > >Edinburgh women only silent vigil >1-2pm first and third Saturday of the month, outside East Register House on >Princes Street. Wear black. > >Exeter peace vigil >Every Friday 5.00-6.00pm in Bedford Square. Bring and share tea at Friends >Meeting House afterwards. Contact Jim or Penelope Putz > >Faslane Peace Camp >Continuous camp at Shandon, Helensburgh, Scotland, contact 01436 820901 > >Hertford Quaker peace vigil >Every Saturday 10.30-12.30 outside the Quaker Meeting House in Railway >Street opposite the bus station. Contact Gerald Drewett on 01992 416 442. > >Huddersfield >Meeting at 7pm every Tuesday, Huddersfield Town Hall. Contact: Roger 01484 >687168 > >Hull vigil >5-6pm, Monday - Friday, and meetings on Tuesdays 7.30pm. Contact Val. > >Leeds vigil >12-1.30 every Saturday on Briggate outside Bodyshop - street stall. Meet >every Monday 7:30 at the Civic Hall Info. > >Liverpool vigil >5-6pm, every Wednesday, Sacred Heart Church, Kensington L7. > >London women only silent vigil against occupation and war >6-7pm, every Wednesday at Edith Cavell statue on traffic island in St >Martin's Place (tube Leicester Square). Wear black. Contact Women in Black >on 020 7482 5670 > >London: Wimbledon silent peace vigil >Every Friday 6.00-7.00pm in St Mark's Place next to the library, plus >leafleting. Contact Kurt Strauss > >Manchester vigil against sanctions on Iraq and occupation of West Bank >12.30-1.30pm every Wednesday, outside St Peter's Chaplaincy, Oxford Road. >Contact: Salford CND on 01942 894 862 > >Menwith Hill Peace Camps >Nearly continuous camp at Fylingdales Peace Camp at Ellerbeck, near main >entrance; WoMenwith Hill Women's Peace Camp at Kettesring Lay-by. Info on >both on 01943 468593 or 01943 466825. > >Menwith Hill vigil >7-9pm every Tuesday- protest outside main gate. Contact: Gay 230 7127. > >Milton Keynes Anti-war vigil >5-7pm every Monday, outside station. Contact: Milton Keynes Gulf Crisis >Group on 01908 663 652 > >Milton Keynes monthly vigil against sanctions and bombing of Iraq >times vary (please ring), 1st Saturday of month outside Central Library. >Contact Milton Keynes Gulf Crisis Group on 01908 663 652 > >Newcastle vigil >1-2:30pm, most Saturdays - leafletting most Saturdays at the Monument, in >central Newcastle. Info. > >Norwich silent peace vigil >Every Wednesday 12.30 to 1.00pm at The Forum and every Sunday 12.00-12.30. >Contact 01603 664 479. > >Nottingham Stand for Peace >12:30 to 13:00 every Sunday, outside the Council House, Central Nottingham. >Also, weekly planning meetings every Wednesdays, from 19:30 to 21:00, ICC, >Mansfield Road. Contact. > >Oxford peace vigil >Every Friday 4.30-5.30pm, Cornmarket, opposite St Michael at Northgate, plu= >s >leafletting. Contact Richard Thompson > >Sheffield vigil >4.30-6pm every Friday on steps of Old Town Hall. Contact Sheffield Stop the >War. > >Stafford peace vigil >Every Saturday 12.00-1.00pm in Market Square. Contact Dennis Gripton on >01543 424 391. > >Stroud peace vigil >12:00 to 13:00, every Saturday in the High Street. Contact John Marjoram on >01453 750962. > >Winchester peace vigil >Every Saturday 2.00-3.00pm at the Buttercross, High Street. Contact Iain >Reid on 01962 733 587 > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 4 >From: john.hemming@jhc.co.uk >Subject: Re: [casi] Iraq - what next? >Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 09:42:41 AM GMT Standard Time >To: casi-discuss@lists.casi.org.uk >cc: > > >Dear Tim > >>irrespective of points upon which we obviously disagree, (pretty obvious b= >y >>now I think) I want to make it clear that nothing I said was intended to >>criticise efforts to achieve proposals a to e below, which are literally >>life and death issues for millions of people. . > >I have had useful comments since our conversation via this group. The area= > that is key is point d) because that leads to the least number of casualti= >es both in terms of civilians, conscripts and supporters of the regime. > >If the key people who shore up the regime know that they are safe when the = >regime loses control then they are going to be less inclined to fight to ke= >ep the regime. That is why an organisation external to Iraq will be needed= > to protect them from the massacres that happened in 1991. Whether this sh= >ould be the Red Cross/Red Crescent or the UN or some combination is not cle= >ar. What matters is that it does protect the people and has the credibilit= >y such that people trust it. > >The conscripts can basically desert if the regime falls to pieces. Those = >who shore up the regime can lie low for a while, but need an exit route of = >some form. > >If d) works well there basically would not be much fighting. >(hence no need for any shells). > >As far as I can tell the military are still talking about 4 days of bombing= > before trying anything on the ground. I hope to prove that this is not n= >ecessary. > >I have two more meetings later today (I am now in London) with two separate= > groups of Iraqis. I am hoping that we will have a reasonably good set of = >proposals by the end of this week. Many of the Civil Servants dealing with= > these issues return to work on Monday. > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >This is a daily digest of postings to the CASI discussion list. >To post a message to the list, use CASI-discuss@lists.casi.org.uk >To unsubscribe or switch to non-digest mode, visit http://lists.casi.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/casi-discuss > > >End of CASI-discuss Digest Dr Kamil Mahdi University of Exeter _______________________________________________ Sent via the discussion list of the Campaign Against Sanctions on Iraq. To unsubscribe, visit http://lists.casi.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/casi-discuss To contact the list manager, email casi-discuss-admin@lists.casi.org.uk All postings are archived on CASI's website: http://www.casi.org.uk