The following is an archived copy of a message sent to a Discussion List run by the Campaign Against Sanctions on Iraq.
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> I agree with Roger Stroope's objection to the > use of bad language, though not necessarily his > views. But it is one thing preaching to others and > quite another to practise it oneself. Dear Muhamed, I think you misunderstood: Roger did not object to Mr. Zeilweger's "use of bad language" - if you mean the use of "bullshit". What he objected to was Zeilweger's insulting people who stand up for human values, such as peace and love. Here is what he responded to: Zeilweger: "Especially the ones that boast this 'holier than thou, peace & love' bullshit." If you replace "bullshit" by 'rubbish' the remark is just as insulting to pacifists. But since _you_ supported the war and the invasion you may, as you say, not share this view. Nor did Roger use "bad language" in his post to you some three months ago. Or say anything that might offend you. Here is what he said: Roger: "I would imagine that I can count the individuals who would agree with this article (casi members) on one hand, perhaps on two fingers." Roger felt that no more than five, perhaps only one or two CASI members would agree with the article you posted. > I did understand the cultural connotation of > "two fingers" in western culture but I declined > to be dragged down to such level... Muhamed, you misunderstood. To 'count xxx on the fingers of one hand' is an idiomatic expression, emphasizing 'very few'. It has nothing do to with the 'two finger salute' you seem to be thinking of. Besides, this gesture has _two_ meanings; one being so rude that Roger would never make it. In any case, one wouldn't try to convey gestures in writing - as far as I know. > Yours in politeness, Poor Muhamed... I suppose you were displeased about "yours in idiocy" too? It reflects the speaker's state of mind, not yours - indicating Roger felt bewildered, stupefied, exasperated by your comment - and the article. He might also have said 'yours in despair' or 'in sadness'. But you see for pacifists, such as Roger, your comment was a bit hard to swallow: As I remember, you posted an article glorifying the war and the invasion with the comment that now you feel your pre-war prognosis (let's bomb Iraq) was 'vindicated'. Wasn't there also something about the 'end justifying the means'? Anyway, Roger was thinking of the Iraqis killed, maimed, and wounded. That's why he said: "perhaps you should go to a hospital in Iraq, any hospital in Iraq, and see how vindicated you are." I agree with Roger absolutely. And you seem to be more of Mr. Zeilweger's mind. Your privilege of course. But you can't reasonably expect to endear yourself most to CASI members with such comments. What puzzles me is why you keep posting this stuff - e.g., 'kill all the looters'. Are you trying to win CASI hearts and minds, Muhamed? And take your latest missive: "David Aaronovitch, Sunday August 3, 2003, The Observer: "Inching to peace". "Both sides got it wrong, but it is the anti-warmongers who have greater grounds for unhappiness." Anti-warmongers, indeed! Still, I do understand why you would have been offended by such cultural misunderstanding. Yours in sympathy (just this once) Elga Sutter ---------------Original Message----------------- From: "Muhamed Ali" <Muhamed.Ali@Hackney.gov.uk> To: email@example.com Subject: FW: [casi] Regarding 'Testimony of the Iraqi Doctor' ---- Give me a break! Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:20:56 +0100 Dear list members, I agree with Roger Stroope's objection to the use of bad language, though not necessarily his views. But it is one thing preaching to others and quite another to practise it oneself. Are not you the same person, an academic from a place of learning, who responded to my e-mail of 6th June 2003 as follows: [ Presenting plain-text part of multi-format email ] In a message dated 06/06/2003 11:07:36 AM Central Daylight Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > I urge you to read this article, especially the last two paragraphs. I > feel > "I would imagine that I can count the individuals who would agree with this article (casi members) on one hand, perhaps on two fingers. As to your pre-war prognosis being vindicated, perhaps you should go to a hospital in Iraq, any hospital in Iraq, and see how vindicated you are. Yours in idiocy, Roger Stroope Austin College Sherman Texas, USA www.austincollege.edu" I did understand the cultural connotation of "two fingers" in western culture but I declined to be dragged down to such level of "honest dialogue". I left it to others on the list, some of whom must have read it and understood it. I can not think of an appropriate saying in English, but there is a famous verse in Arabic. I even agree with Roger's last paragraph with the proviso of substituting VnStroope@aol.com for email@example.com. Yours in politeness, Muhamad -----Original Message----- From: VnStroope@aol.com [mailto:VnStroope@aol.com] Sent: 15 August 2003 14:34 To: firstname.lastname@example.org; email@example.com Subject: Re: [casi] Regarding 'Testimony of the Iraqi Doctor' ---- Give me a break! [ Presenting plain-text part of multi-format email ] In a message dated 8/15/03 5:21:15 AM Central Daylight Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > Especially the ones that boast this 'holier > than thou, peace & love' bullshit. Clearly you are "here" on CASI for one purpose, to stir up trouble. You hurl insults at human beings who have sincere concerns, mischaracterize their words and certainly their thoughts, oversimplify the issues, and use foul language when you run out of other things to write. If you had any sincere intention to engage the individuals on this list in honest dialogue you perhaps would understand how we have arrived at our conclusions. We have of course heard the premises from which you proceed for a very long time and I for one find your rhetoric tired and dated. For me, all emails that originate from 'email@example.com' will receive their due respect, which is to say none at all, I am thankful that my delete key works. Roger Stroope Northern Arizona University Flagstaff USA ~Just 10% of our military budget spent yearly on the United States could give every high school graduate a college education for four years. ~Fact:the proposed $48 billion increase in military spending for next year (2004) is bigger than the total military budget of any other country on earth. ### _______________________________________________ Sent via the discussion list of the Campaign Against Sanctions on Iraq. 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