[casi] Chomsky Interview

[Dan Epstein <dseps@DELETETHISyahoo.com>]

<http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=41&ItemID=3450>

Noam Chomsky Interviewed
By Michael Albert

Albert: (1) Why did the U.S. invade Iraq, in your view?

Chomsky: These are naturally speculations, and policy makers may have
varying motives. But we can have a high degree of confidence about the
answers given by Bush-Powell and the rest; these cannot possibly be
taken seriously. They have gone out of their way to make sure we
understand that, by a steady dose of self-contradiction ever since last
September when the war drums began to beat. One day the "single
question" is whether Iraq will disarm; in today's version (April 12):
"We have high confidence that they have weapons of mass destruction --
that is what this war was about and is about." That was the pretext
throughout the whole UN-disarmament farce, though it was never easy to
take seriously; UNMOVIC was doing a good job in virtually disarming
Iraq, and could have continued, if that were the goal. But there is no
need to discuss it, because after stating solemnly that this is the
"single question," they went on the next day to announce that it wasn't
the goal at all: even if there isn't a pocket knife anywhere in Iraq,
the US will invade anyway, because it is committed to "regime change."
The next day we hear that there's nothing to that either; thus at the
Azores summit, where Bush-Blair issued their ultimatum to the UN, they
made it clear that they would invade even if Saddam and his gang left
the country. So "regime change" is not enough. The next day we hear that
the goal is "democracy" in the world. Pretexts range over the lot,
depending on audience and circumstances, which means that no sane person
can take the charade seriously.

The one constant is that the US must end up in control of Iraq. Saddam
Hussein was authorized to suppress, brutally, a 1991 uprising that might
have overthrown him because "the best of all worlds" for Washington
would be "an iron-fisted Iraqi junta without Saddam Hussein" (by then an
embarrassment), which would rule the country with an "iron fist" as
Saddam had done with US support and approval (NYT chief diplomatic
correspondent Thomas Friedman). The uprising would have left the country
in the hands of Iraqis who might not have subordinated themselves
sufficiently to Washington. The murderous sanctions regime of the
following years devastated the society, strengthened the tyrant, and
compelled the population to rely for survival on his (highly efficient)
system for distributing basic goods. The sanctions thus undercut the
possibility of the kind of popular revolt that had overthrown an
impressive series of other monsters who had been strongly supported by
the current incumbents in Washington up to the very end of their bloody
rule: Marcos, Duvalier, Ceausescu, Mobutu, Suharto, and a long list of
others, some of them easily as tyrannical and barbaric as Saddam. Had it
not been for the sanctions, Saddam probably would have gone the same
way, as has been pointed out for years by the Westerners who know Iraq
best, Denis Halliday and Hans van Sponeck (though one has to go to
Canada, England, or elsewhere to find their writings). But overthrow of
the regime from within would not be acceptable either, because it would
leave Iraqis in charge. The Azores summit merely reiterated that stand.

The question of who rules Iraq remains the prime issue of contention.
The US-backed opposition demands that the UN play a vital role in
post-war Iraq and rejects US control of reconstruction or government
(Leith Kubba, one of the most respected secular voices in the West,
connected with the National Endowment of Democracy). One of the leading
Shi'ite opposition figures, Sayed Muhamed Baqer al-Hakim, who heads the
Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), just informed
the press that "we understand this war to be about imposing US hegemony
over Iraq," and perceive the US as "an occupying rather than a
liberating force." He stressed that the UN must supervise elections, and
called on "foreign troops to withdraw from Iraq" and leave Iraqis in
charge.

US policy-makers have a radically different conception. They must impose
a client regime in Iraq, following the practice elsewhere in the region,
and most significantly, in the regions that have been under US
domination for a century, Central America and the Caribbean. That too is
well-understood. Brent Scowcroft, National Security Adviser to Bush I,
just repeated the obvious: "What's going to happen the first time we
hold an election in Iraq and it turns out the radicals win? What do you
do? We're surely not going to let them take over."

The same holds throughout the region. Recent studies reveal that from
Morocco to Lebanon to the Gulf, about 95% of the population want a
greater role in government for Islamic religious figures, and the same
percentage believe that the sole US interest in the region is to control
its oil and strengthen Israel. Antagonism to Washington has reached
unprecedented heights, and the idea that Washington would institute a
radical change in policy and tolerate truly democratic elections,
respecting the outcome, seems rather fanciful, to say the least.

Turning to the question, one reason for the invasion, surely, is to gain
control over the world's second largest oil reserves, which will place
the US in an even more powerful position of global domination,
maintaining "a stranglehold on the global economy," as Michael Klare
describes the long-term objective, which he regards as the primary
motive for war. However, this cannot explain the timing. Why now?

The drumbeat for war began in September 2002, and the government-media
propaganda campaign achieved a spectacular success. Very quickly, the
majority of the population came to believe that Iraq posed an imminent
threat to US security, even that Iraq was involved in 9-11 (up from 3%
after 9-11) and was planning new attacks. Not surprisingly, these
beliefs correlated closely with support for the planned war. The beliefs
are unique to the US. Even in Kuwait and Iran, which were invaded by
Saddam Hussein, he was not feared, though he was despised. They know
perfectly well that Iraq was the weakest state in the region, and for
years they had joined others in trying to reintegrate Iraq into the
regional system, over strong US objections. But a highly effective
propaganda assault drove the American population far off the spectrum of
world opinion, a remarkable achievement.

The September propaganda assault coincided with two important events.
One was the opening of the mid-term election campaign. Karl Rove, the
administration's campaign manager, had already pointed out that
Republicans have to "go to the country" on the issue of national
security, because voters "trust the Republican Party to do a better job
of...protecting America." One didn't have to be a political genius to
realize that if social and economic issues dominated the election, the
Bush administration did not have a chance. Accordingly, it was necessary
to concoct a huge threat to our survival, which the powerful leader will
manage to overcome, miraculously. For the elections, the strategy barely
worked. Polls reveal that voters maintained their preferences, but
suppressed concerns over jobs, pensions, benefits, etc., in favor of
security. Something similar will be needed for the presidential
campaign. All of this is second nature for the current incumbents. They
are mostly recycled from the more reactionary sectors of the Reagan-Bush
administrations, and know that they were able to run the country for 12
years, carrying out domestic programs that the public largely opposed,
by pushing the panic button regularly: Libyan attempting to "expel us
from the world" (Reagan), an air base in Grenada from which the Russians
would bomb us, Nicaragua only "two-days driving time from Harlingen
Texas," waving their copies of Mein Kampf as they planned to take over
the hemisphere, black criminals about to rape your sister (Willie
Horton, the 1988 presidential campaign), Hispanic narcotraffickers about
to destroy us, and on and on.

To maintain political power is an extremely important matter if the
narrow sectors of power represented by the Bush administration hope to
carry out their reactionary domestic program over strong popular
opposition, if possible even to institutionalize them, so it will be
hard to reconstruct what is being dismantled.

Something else happened in September 2002: the administration released
its National Security Strategy, sending many shudders around the world,
including the US foreign policy elite. The Strategy has many precedents,
but does break new ground: for the first time in the post-war world, a
powerful state announced, loud and clear, that it intends to rule the
world by force, forever, crushing any potential challenge it might
perceive. This is often called in the press a doctrine of "pre-emptive
war." That is crucially wrong; it goes vastly beyond pre-emption.
Sometimes it is called more accurately a doctrine of "preventive war."
That too understates the doctrine. No military threat, however remote,
need be "prevented"; challenges can be concocted at will, and may not
involve any threat other than "defiance"; those who pay attention to
history know that "successful defiance" has often been taken to be
justification for resort to force in the past.

When a doctrine is announced, some action must be taken to demonstrate
that it is seriously intended, so that it can become a new "norm in
international relations," as commentators will soberly explain. What is
needed is a war with an "exemplary quality," Harvard Middle East
historian Roger Owen pointed out, discussing the reasons for the attack
on Iraq. The exemplary action teaches a lesson that others must heed, or
else.

Why Iraq? The experimental subject must have several important
qualities. It must be defenseless, and it must be important; there's no
point illustrating the doctrine by invading Burundi. Iraq qualified
perfectly in both respects. The importance is obvious, and so is the
required weakness. Iraq was not much of a military force to begin with,
and had been largely disarmed through the 1990s while much of the
society was driven to the edge of survival. Its military expenditures
and economy were about one-third those of Kuwait, with 10% of its
population, far below others in the region, and of course the regional
superpower, Israel, by now virtually an offshore military base of the
US. The invading force not only had utterly overwhelming military power,
but also extensive information to guide its actions from satellite
observation and overflights for many years, and more recently U-2
flights on the pretext of disarmament, surely sending data directly back
to Washington.

Iraq was therefore a perfect choice for an "exemplary action" to
establish the new doctrine of global rule by force as a "norm of
international relations." A high official involved in drafting the
National Security Strategy informed the press that its publication "was
the signal that Iraq would be the first test, but not the last." "Iraq
became the petri dish in which this experiment in pre-emptive policy
grew," the New York Times reported -- misstating the policy in the usual
way, but otherwise accurate.

All of these factors gave good reasons for war. And they also help
explain why the planned war was so overwhelmingly opposed by the public
worldwide (including the US, particularly when we extract the factor of
fear, unique to the US). And also strongly opposed by a substantial part
of economic and foreign policy elites, a very unusual development. They
rightly fear that the adventurist posture may prove very costly to their
own interests, even to survival. It is well-understood that these
policies are driving others to develop a deterrent, which could be
weapons of mass destruction, or credible threats of serious terror, or
even conventional weapons, as in the case of North Korea, with artillery
massed to destroy Seoul. With any remnants of some functioning system of
world order torn to shreds, the Bush administration is instructing the
world that nothing matters but force -- and they hold the mailed fist,
though others are not likely to tolerate that for long. Including, one
hopes, the American people, who are in by far the best position to
counter and reverse these extremely ominous trends.



(2) There is some cheering in the streets of Iraqi cities. Does this
retrospectively undercut the logic of antiwar opposition?

I'm surprised that it was so limited and so long delayed. Every sensible
person should welcome the overthrow of the tyrant, and the ending of the
devastating sanctions, most certainly Iraqis. But the antiwar
opposition, at least the part of it I know anything about, was always in
favor of these ends. That's why it opposed the sanctions that were
destroying the country and undermining the possibility of an internal
revolt that would send Saddam the way of the other brutal killers
supported by the present incumbents in Washington. The antiwar movement
insisted that Iraqis, not the US government, must run the country. And
it still does -- or should; it can have a substantial impact in this
regard. Opponents of the war were also rightly appalled by the utter
lack of concern for the possible humanitarian consequences of the
attack, and by the ominous strategy for which it was the "test case."
The basic issues remain: (1) Who will run Iraq, Iraqis or a clique in
Crawford Texas? (2) Will the American people permit the narrow
reactionary sectors that barely hold on to political power to implement
their domestic and international agendas?


(3) There have been no wmd found. Does this retrospectively undercut
Bush's rationales for war?
Only if one takes the rationale seriously. The leadership still pretends
to, as Fleischer's current remarks illustrate. If they can find
something, which is not unlikely, that will be trumpeted as
justification for the war. If they can't, the whole issue will be
"disappeared" in the usual fashion.


 (4) If wmd are now found, and verified, would that retrospecitvely
undercut antiwar opposition?

That's a logical impossibility. Policies and opinions about them are
determined by what is known or plausibly believed, not by what is
discovered afterwards. That should be elementary.


(5) Will there be democracy in Iraq, as a result of this invasion?

Depends on what one means by "democracy." I presume the Bush PR team
will want to put into place some kind of formal democracy, as long as it
has no substance. But it's hard to imagine that they would allow a real
voice to the Shi'ite majority, which is likely to join the rest of the
region in trying to establish closer relations with Iran, the last thing
the Bushites want. Or that they would allow a real voice to the next
largest component of the population, the Kurds, who are likely to seek
some kind of autonomy within a federal structure that would be anathema
to Turkey, a major base for US power in the region. One should not be
misled by the recent hysterical reaction to the crime of the Turkish
government in adopting the position of 95% of its population, another
indication of the passionate hatred of democracy in elite circles here,
and another reason why no sensible person can take the rhetoric
seriously. Same throughout the region. Functioning democracy would have
outcomes that are inconsistent with the goal of US hegemony, just as in
our own "backyard" over a century.



(6) What message has been received by governments around the world, with
what likely broad implications?

The message is that the Bush administration intends its National
Security Strategy to be taken seriously, as the "test case" illustrates.
It intends to dominate the world by force, the one dimension in which it
rules supreme, and to do so permanently. A more specific message,
illustrated dramatically by the Iraq-North Korea case, is that if you
want to fend off a US attack, you had better have a credible deterrent.
It's widely assumed in elite circles that the likely consequence is
proliferation of WMD and terror, in various forms, based on fear and
loathing for the US administration, which was regarded as the greatest
threat to world peace even before the invasion. That's no small matter
these days. Questions of peace shade quickly into questions of survival
for the species, given the case of means of violence.


(7) What was the role of the American media establishment in paving the
way for this war, and then rationalizing it, narrowing the terms of
discussion, etc.?

The media uncritically relayed government propaganda about the threat to
US security posed by Iraq, its involvement in 9-11 and other terror,
etc. Some amplified the message on their own. Others simply relayed it.
The effects in the polls were striking, as often before. Discussion was,
as usual, restricted to "pragmatic grounds": will the US government get
away with its plans at a cost acceptable at home. Once the war began it
became a shameful exercise of cheering for the home team, appalling much
of the world.


(8) What is next on the agenda, broadly, for Bush and Co., if they are
able to pursue their preferred agendas?

They have publicly announced that the next targets could be Syria and
Iran -- which would require a strong military base in Iraq, presumably;
another reason why any meaningful democracy is unlikely. It has been
reliably reported for some time that the US and its allies (Turkey,
Israel, and some others) have been taking steps towards dismemberment of
Iran. But there are other possible targets too. The Andean region
qualifies. It has very substantial resources, including oil. It is in
turmoil, with dangerous independent popular movements that are not under
control. It is by now surrounded by US military bases with US forces
already on the ground. And one can think of others.


(9) What obstacles now stand in the way of Bush and Co.'s doing as they
prefer, and what obstacles might arise?

The prime obstacle is domestic. But that's up to us.


(10) What has been your impression of antiwar opposition and what ought
to be its agenda now?

Antiwar opposition here has been completely without precedent in scale
and commitment, something we've discussed before, and that is certainly
obvious to anyone who has had any experience in these matters here for
the past 40 years. Its agenda right now, I think, should be to work to
ensure that Iraq is run by Iraqis, that the US provide massive
reparations for what it has done to Iraq for 20 years (by supporting
Saddam Hussein, by wars, by brutal sanctions which probably caused a
great deal more damage and deaths than the wars); and if that is too
much honesty to expect, then at last massive aid, to be used by Iraqis,
as they decide, which well be something other than US taxpayer subsidies
to Halliburton and Bechtel. Also high on the agenda should be putting a
brake on the extremely dangerous policies announced in the Security
Strategy, and carried out in the "petri dish." And related to that,
there should be serious efforts to block the bonanza of arms sales that
is happily anticipated as a consequence of the war, which will also
contribute to making the world a more awful and dangerous place. But
that's only the beginning. The antiwar movement is indissolubly linked
to the global justice movements, which have much more far-reaching
goals, properly.


(11) What do you think is the relationship between the invasion of Iraq
and corporate glboalization, and what should be the relation between the
anticorproate globalization movement, and the peace movement?

The invasion of Iraq was strongly opposed by the main centers of
corporate globalization. At the World Economic Forum in Davos in
January, opposition was so strong that Powell was practically shouted
down when he tried to present a case for the war -- announcing, pretty
clearly, that the US would "lead" even if no one followed, except for
the pathetic Blair. The global justice and peace movements are so
closely linked in their objectives that there is nothing much to say. We
should, however, recall that the planners do draw these links, as we
should too, in our own different way. They predict that their version of
"globalization" will proceed on course, leading to "chronic financial
volatility" (meaning still slower growth, harming mostly the poor) "and
a widening economic divide" (meaning less globalization in the technical
sense of convergence). They predict further that "deepening economic
stagnation, political instability, and cultural alienation will foster
ethnic, ideological and religious extremism, along with violence," much
of it directed against the US -- that is, more terror. Military planners
make the same assumptions. That is a good part of the rationale for
rapidly increasing military spending, including the plans for
militarization of space that the entire world is trying to block,
without much hope as long as the matter is kept from the sight of
Americans, who have the prime responsibility to stop it. I presume that
is why some of the major events of last October were not even reported,
among them the US vote at the UN, alone (with Israel), against a
resolution calling for reaffirmation of a 1925 Geneva convention banning
biological weapons and another resolution strengthening the 1967 Outer
Space Treaty to ban use of space for military purposes, including
offensive weapons that may well do us all in.

The agenda, as always, begins with trying to find out what is happening
in the world, and then doing something about it, as we can, better than
anyone else. Few share our privilege, power, and freedom -- hence
responsibility. That should be another truism.

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