The following is an archived copy of a message sent to a Discussion List run by the Campaign Against Sanctions on Iraq.
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Dear Bert, Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed to me your remark about the "circular argument" game was at least partially addressed to me. Well, I don't think I'm playing this game. To me it's almost cynical that again we go to war as again the people responsible for the darker side of US-foreign policy in the last thirty years have taken office. From the mid sixties on till now, every time the likes of Rumsfeld and Cheney were involved in the government the US started or supported the most cruel wars and dictatorships. This doesn't mean I'm blind to the crimes of Saddam Hussein. In fact I'm all eyes but I'm not willing to close them when looking at the US. I'm utterly flabbergasted about the fact the world lets it self be forced in a war by the same people over and over again. These guys founded, trained and armed Al Quaida and the Taliban. They were the ones who supported many South-American regimes in the eighties with military advisors, weapons and money. A support which left hundred of thousands killed, imprisoned and suppressed. They even were a part of the Nixon-government, which prolonged the Vietnam War just to win the elections. This is not a "circular argument", these facts should play a part in the current discussion. I'm not running in any separate wheels, I'm nearly stating that if the human rights card is being played, there are more cards in the deck than just the one portraying Saddam Hussein. To me it is absolutely incomprehensible most media pay no attention to the fact it's again the same bunch of cowboys pulling the wires which will lead us in to again another human disaster. While Saddam's history is portrayed almost daily in newspapers and news reports all over the world, when it comes to the history of the people now running the show in Washington the sound of silence is overwhelming. A lot of arguments the US-regime uses to justify this war are the same they used to justify their murder campaigns in many other occasions. Again words such as human rights, democracy and freedom are being used as a mantra to get us all in the right state of mind for killing in the name of God, humanity and world peace. There is a patron here. Like there is a patron in the way Saddam has acted over the last thirty years. To see Saddam being driven out of office would be a good thing, but to me to see the likes of Rumsfeld being hold responsible for their actions would be just as important, in fact maybe even more important. Cause it many times are these guys who make the rise of dictators like Saddam possible. So my reflections on their crimes shouldn't be seen as anti-Americanism or a way of playing down the hideous deeds of the Iraqi regime. Nor is it my attempt to cripple the discussion over Iraq or to drag it in an endless argument over who are the real villains. I'm just genuinely concerned over the lack of media attention on the track record of those ruling the White House and who are now pushing us in to yet another war. If history has any purpose, it's to learn from it. But no lessons can be learned if we're not first are taught that history. Sander Faas Faaz@battl.nl http://battl.nl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bert Gedin" <gedinbert@hotmail.com> To: <kg6irh@pacbell.net>; <casi-discuss@lists.casi.org.uk> Cc: <gedinbert@hotmail.com> Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [casi] COME OUT OF HIDING AND RESPOND > > Dear Tim, > > If nothing else is achieved by these exchanges, at least we're given an > opportunity to exercise our brain cells. Definitely better than playing the > "circular argument" game - like two guinea pigs running around in separate > wheels. > > Let's examine a few of your points: "The US does not give a rip what the > rest of the world thinks of it anymore". Doesn't it? Looks like dangerous > desperation, where "rip" can easily become "R.I.P.". > > You say the US spent decades helping other nations out, being generous with > it's wealth & it's people's blood. Trouble is, the US often "forgot" to ask > other people's whether, or not they actually wanted the help on offer. All > too often, sadly, the US were more than generous, not with it's own wealth & > blood, but with other people's. Vietnam, from a long list, comes to mind. > > The Palestinian lady, you describe so vividly (as a toothless, crack-whore) > dancing on the street? Many others weren't celebrating destruction of the > WTC. Palestinians are all too familiar with the wanton destruction of their > own offices, homes & clinics, as a daly occurrence, not merely on one date, > however tragic. Perversely, it would appear that the US, unless you can > explain this away, since many years, has been encouraging the Israeli > actions against Palestine, and I don't mean just with many billions of > dollars, although that is certainly part of it. The US "too damn nice"? I > sometimes wonder! > > Other points in your letter may require addressing. But I disagree with you > that lust for revenge & destruction is the answer. Being neither Muslim nor > Arabic, I'm not happy with everything taking place in the > Islamic world. But if the "sleeping giant", you refer to, is going to run > amoc, like some crazed Rambo, then the world would be better off if > the giant went back to bed again. > > Greetings, > > Bert. > > > > > > > >From: "Timothy-Allen Albertson-KG6IRH" <kg6irh@pacbell.net> > >To: "Bert Gedin" <gedinbert@hotmail.com> > >Subject: Re: [casi] COME OUT OF HIDING AND RESPOND > >Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 11:13:51 -0800 > > > >But POTUS enjoys a very high approval rating in the polls especially with > >regard to his policy on iraq. Things dramatically changed on 11 September > >2001 when that first jetplane was driven by muslim puke terrorist thugs > >into > >the WTC. The US really does not give a rip what the rest of the world > >thinks of it anymore. > > > >The US spent decades helping other nations out. > >No nation in history has been as generous with its welath and its people's > >blood to help out the rest of the world. But when we do not do accede to > >the selfish demands of many particular islamic thugs who want us to finish > >off what Hitler started they attack us. > > > >When the US was attacked on 11 September 2001 it saw a toothless ragheaed > >palestinian crack-whore dancing in the streets. We heard muslims say they > >were sorry but that it was all the fault of the US. And yes it was the > >fault of the US in that we had been too damn nice to people who hate us and > >will hate us no matter what we do. > > > >The US could change dramatically. We could finish off what Hitler started > >and run Israel into the sea. We could mandate muslim practices for all of > >its residents. We could introduce sharia. > > > >But as long we had a single penny in our coffers the muslims would keep > >demanding from the US until our last penny was gone and our last drop of > >blood had been expended. These muslims pukes would even then keep harping > >about all of the wrong we had done in the past. > > > >The bottom line is that a sleeping giant was awoken on 11 September 2001. > >To tell the truth I do not really care how many muslims die. iraq must be > >invaded and driven to its knees because it is a muslim state whic has > >challenged the US. > > > >I have a problem with how POTUS has dealt with the war on terror and the > >war > >in iraq. It is that he has been way too reticent. medina and mecca should > >have been returned to the sand before the sun set on the smoldering ruins > >in > >NYC. And the next day that should have been followed by teheran, baghdad > >and the gaza strip with Israel entering into the west bank and destroying > >all > >palestinian infrastructure down to the privies. > > > >There is nothing that the US can do that will satisfy the arabs and muslims > >and make them stop hating the US. That leaves the US the only option of > >destroying them and their uncivlized culture. > > > >73 de tim kg6irh. > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Bert Gedin" <gedinbert@hotmail.com> > >To: <kg6irh@pacbell.net>; <soc-casi-discuss@lists.cam.ac.uk> > >Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 10:47 AM > >Subject: Re: [casi] COME OUT OF HIDING AND RESPOND > > > > > > > > > > Dear Tim, > > > > > > Sorry if you felt I was "accusing", I was merely suggesting that you > > > question your own views. Projection? Maybe. These matters have got to be > > > investigated by each of us. We are, of course, entitled to our feelings, > > > whether anger or whatever. People insulting your President, and not > >being > > > happy with his morals? Some of us feel that, re. Mr. G.W. Bush, his > > > views/morals are wrong, nationally & internationally, and that he, and > >his > > > government pose a very grave danger to the world, including the USA. His > > > statements & policies, in my view, are utterly undemocratic. My view is > >that > > > Mr. Bush does not deserve the trust of the people of the USA, nor of the > > > world. What is needed is intelligent, responsible leadership, not Gary > > > Cooper in 'High Noon'. > > > > > > Greetings, > > > > > > Bert. > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Timothy-Allen Albertson-KG6IRH" <kg6irh@pacbell.net> > > > >To: "Bert Gedin" > ><gedinbert@hotmail.com>,<soc-casi-discuss@lists.cam.ac.uk> > > > >CC: <gedinbert@hotmail.com> > > > >Subject: Re: [casi] COME OUT OF HIDING AND RESPOND > > > >Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 10:04:19 -0800 > > > > > > > >Do I detect a little projection in accusing me of holding views based > >on > > > >someone else's propaganda? That is condascending and patronizing. > >Aside > > > >from that it is wrong. I think for myself. Angry? Hell yes. People > >who > > > >insult and impugn the morals of my President, Government and Nation, > > > >without > > > >any factual basis or any other basis but maybe a visceral hatred of one > >of > > > >more of them, anger me very much. > > > >73 de tim kg6irh. > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: "Bert Gedin" <gedinbert@hotmail.com> > > > >To: <kg6irh@pacbell.net>; <soc-casi-discuss@lists.cam.ac.uk> > > > >Cc: <gedinbert@hotmail.com> > > > >Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 2:17 AM > > > >Subject: Re: [casi] COME OUT OF HIDING AND RESPOND > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Tim, > > > > > > > > > > Maybe the reason that you're not getting any responses is that, > >rightly > > > > > or wrongly, people feel you are very angry. Have you ever stopped to > > > > > question your own views, even asked yourself whether those views > > > >genuinely > > > > > are your own (i.e. not the result of someone else's propaganda) and > > > > > seriously tried to listen, even for a few minutes, to what someone > >else > > > >has > > > > > to say? To degenerate into an 'exchange' which only involves, > >mutually, > > > > > hurling abuse at each other becomes meaningless, and a waste of > >time. > > > >Can > > > >I > > > > > go back into hiding now, Tim? > > > > > > > > > > Greetings, > > > > > > > > > > Bert. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Timothy-Allen Albertson-KG6IRH" <kg6irh@pacbell.net> > > > > > >To: <soc-casi-discuss@lists.cam.ac.uk> > > > > > >Subject: [casi] COME OUT OF HIDING AND RESPOND > > > > > >Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 23:23:42 -0800 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >[ Presenting plain-text part of multi-format email ] > > > > > > > > > > > >What? None of you can reply to my questions? > > > > > >What can't think out of the speel fed to you by your handlers in > > > >baghdad > > > > > >and north korea? > > > > > >73 de tim kg6irh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > >Sent via the discussion list of the Campaign Against Sanctions on > >Iraq. > > > > > >To unsubscribe, visit > > > > > >http://lists.casi.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/casi-discuss > > > > > >To contact the list manager, email > >casi-discuss-admin@lists.casi.org.uk > > > > > >All postings are archived on CASI's website: http://www.casi.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > MSN Messenger - fast, easy and FREE! http://messenger.msn.co.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends > > > http://messenger.msn.co.uk > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Messenger - fast, easy and FREE! http://messenger.msn.co.uk > > > _______________________________________________ > Sent via the discussion list of the Campaign Against Sanctions on Iraq. > To unsubscribe, visit http://lists.casi.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/casi-discuss > To contact the list manager, email casi-discuss-admin@lists.casi.org.uk > All postings are archived on CASI's website: http://www.casi.org.uk > _______________________________________________ Sent via the discussion list of the Campaign Against Sanctions on Iraq. To unsubscribe, visit http://lists.casi.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/casi-discuss To contact the list manager, email casi-discuss-admin@lists.casi.org.uk All postings are archived on CASI's website: http://www.casi.org.uk