[casi] Re: [FES] Suicide bombing - historical context {02}

["tim buckley" <tim.buckley@DELETETHIStesco.net>]

Dear Ken,

thanks for your thoughtful and objective response. I really cannot disagree
with anything you say. I thought the article worth posting because it
located these people in the tradition of nationalists(with a dose of Islam)
who are prepared to die for their cause - and kill for it, again in the
tradition of patriots. Lynn rightly pointed out that the deliberate killing
of innocents is immoral - true, in my opinion,  - but again, this barbarism
only places the bombers firmly within the Western way of war. I might not
agree with them, but they are following, not my logic, but that of
nationalism, (with it's implication for the survival of the nation and the
low value attached to the lives of enemy nationals) . In that they are no
different to the Israelis, British, US or any other organized nationalist
"community". The answer?  Given the contours of the problem, I feel that
logically it has to lie in a recognition of Palestinian national dignity,
which is only a recognition that Palestinians are human, with the same
rights as US, British or other nationals. There has long been international
support for the idea of a Palestinian state, based on the West Bank and
Gaza, with East Jerusalem as its capital. I guess I must confess to this as
my adaptive choice, Ken. The key problem is that the US has always been
opposed to the idea, and supported the concept of a Greater Israel along
with Israeli hegemony in the entire region, with a continual flow of arms,
economic aid and diplomatic support to Israel.
Best,   Tim


 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Baskin" <bman47@netaxs.com>
To: <Tim.Buckley@tesco.net>
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 7:18 PM
Subject: [FES] Suicide bombing - historical context {02}


> Tim,
>
> Thanks for your post below. It reminded me of a history teacher I had 35
> years ago (can it really be so long?) who was fond of saying, "It all
> depends whose ox is being gored." This is the essence of a complexity
> studies approach to social systems. Each of us adapts in the way that
> makes most sense for our situation. No one is "wrong," although we are
> very different. To understand what someone else does, you have to leave
> your own adaptive choices on the side and enter into the spirit of that
> person's choices. I myself am strongly pro-Israeli, although I do
> recognize the limitations of this position. At the same time, I wonder
> whether I might not be one of those suicide bombers if I had grown up in
> one of the Palestinian refugee camps in Gaza.
>
> I worry that, until people on both sides are able to make this sort of
> leap of imagination or are at least willing to acknowledge that the view
> point of people on the other side is valid, it will be extremely difficult
> to reach anything resembling peace.
>
> Ken
>
> On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, tim buckley wrote:
>
> > Interesting discussion on the Israel/Palestine thing from Kim, Jack et
al.
> > Here's an historical perspective on the phenomenon of suicide bombers.
> >
> > Regards,   Tim
> > -----
> >
> > > IN DEFENSE OF SUICIDE BOMBERS
> > >
> > >
> > > By
> > >
> > > Andy Martin
> > >
> > >
> > > Israeli propaganda experts have tried to spread the myth that recent
> > > Palestinian suicide bombers represent some horrible new form of
terrorist
> > > warfare. In point of fact, suicide missions and terror tactics are as
> > > American as apple pie.
> > >
> > > Throughout history, young men have sacrificed their lives for causes
they
> > > felt reflected the survival of their nations.
> > >
> > > The defenders of the Alamo were on a suicide mission. They had the
option
> > of
> > > escape, and knew that defense meant certain death. They chose death.
For
> > the
> > > greater good of Texas.
> > >
> > > In World War II, suicide missions were routine. Military officers sent
men
> > > on missions where the chances of return were negligible. They were
> > > committing lives to the cause of defeating Nazi Germany.
> > >
> > > Joe Kennedy, Jr., the brother of President Kennedy, left on a mission
> > where
> > > he knew the prospects for return were doubtful. His aircraft was so
> > > dangerous when he left England that Kennedy never even made it to the
> > coast
> > > of France.
> > >
> > > My own father, a British commando, repeatedly was sent on missions
where
> > the
> > > prospects for his survival were poor.
> > >
> > > The men who landed on D-Day knew that being chosen for the first wave
> > > assault meant their chances of survival were nil. The Marines who
landed
> > at
> > > Iwo Jima could see the carnage in front of them, yet still committed
> > > themselves to virtually certain death.
> > >
> > > The ability of humans to commit themselves to missions where death is
> > almost
> > > assured stems from the common belief in individual sacrifice for
survival
> > of
> > > the greater good.
> > >
> > > Why should Palestinian sacrifices be viewed in any different light?
> > >
> > > If anyone motivates and controls Palestinian suicide bombers it is
Ariel
> > > Sharon, not Yasser Arafat. Sharon repeatedly screams he is "at war."
Being
> > > at war means that extreme measures such as terrorism are tolerated,
when
> > > these same measures would be intolerable in a non-war situation.
> > >
> > > Is it so hard to believe that young Palestinians would sacrifice their
> > lives
> > > to kill Israelis when they see Israelis killing their family and
friends,
> > > and when they witness a brutal and endless Israeli occupation?
> > >
> > > It is unfortunate the concept of "terrorism" has been distorted to
demean
> > > and confuse the public concerning the legitimate military origins of
> > > targeting civilians.
> > >
> > > Terrorism has always been a routine American tactic. We fire bombed
Tokyo.
> > > Was everyone who was killed a Japanese soldier? Obviously not. We fire
> > > bombed Dresden? Was everyone at Dresden a Nazi? Obviously not. Yet our
> > > policy makers believed that killing innocent civilians would
demoralize
> > > Japan and Germany and shorten the war. Who complains today about this
> > > terrorism? No one. We accepted extreme acts as necessary to defeat
extreme
> > > enemies.
> > >
> > > During the "Viet-Nam War," we justified dropping poison on civilians,
and
> > > conducing terrorist operations both inside South Viet-Nam and in North
> > > Viet-Nam. It was only when young America fought the United States
> > Government
> > > to a standstill that America's terrorism against Viet-Nam ended.
> > >
> > > Had Viet-Nam attacked America? Of course not. We justified terrorizing
> > > Vietnamese by claiming it was for the greater good of "peace" and
> > "freedom."
> > >
> > > After we used terrorism against Vietnamese, they used it against us.
And
> > > ultimately we withdrew. Should Palestinians ignore the lessons of
history?
> > >
> > > Despite the efforts of Israeli spin doctors to delude Americans into
> > > thinking that Palestinians were "offered everything" in 2000,
Palestinians
> > > see an endless occupation without the opportunity for a viable state.
> > >
> > > The Israeli government manifests no intention of ending the
negotiations
> > and
> > > withdrawing to its own borders. Sharon screams he is at "war." And he
has
> > > made himself at war.
> > >
> > > Under these Israeli-created conditions, suicide missions are
completely
> > > understandable and, as grotesque as it may seem to us comfortably at
home,
> > > thoroughly justified as a tactic of demoralizing Israelis and
defeating
> > and
> > > ending the Israeli occupation.
> > >
> > > What is surprising is not that young Palestinians have dedicated
> > themselves
> > > to killing Israeli civilians but that they have waited so long, and so
> > > patiently, before doing so.
> > >
> > > The idea that Israel could negotiate forever, while occupying
Palestine
> > and
> > > building "settlements" is abhorrent to reasonable persons. My own
> > > co-religionists, Episcopalians, are horrified at the Israeli
occupation of
> > > the Holy Land.
> > >
> > > The victims of the occupation now demand to be heard over the cocktail
> > > chatter of politicians and diplomats with their endless "negotiations"
and
> > > "confidence building" steps. Thus, the world can expect more and more
> > > extreme military activity, all justified by Ariel Sharon's cries that
he
> > is
> > > "at war."
> > >
> > > It is likely, and painfully obvious, that only when Israel faces
> > extinction
> > > will it negotiate in good faith for its own survival. Until them, the
> > world
> > > can expect suicide bombers and more and more extreme weapons and
tactics
> > to
> > > be deployed by Palestinians to force Israelis to withdraw and settle
on
> > > mutually acceptable terms.
> > >
> > > In closing, it is worthwhile remembering that "Sharon's War," began
with
> > > Palestinians throwing stones, and Israelis killing children in
response.
> > > When Israelis persisted in killing stone throwers, Palestinians
resorted
> > to
> > > small arms. When Israel escalated with tanks and invasions,
Palestinians
> > > recently began to deploy anti-tank weapons. The intercepted weapons
> > shipment
> > > in January reflected the reality that unless President Bush imposes
adult
> > > supervision on Israeli and Palestinian leaders, children will continue
to
> > > die and tactics and weapons will continue to escalate.
> > >
> > > Palestinians are entitled to believe that giving their lives in the
hope
> > it
> > > will bring their country freedom is a noble pursuit and a great
sacrifice.
> > > Few of us are capable of committing, or even understanding, such a
> > > sacrifice. It reflects desperation. But it should also be a canary
warning
> > > for the west. As long as the west allows Israel to employ war tactics
as a
> > > means of controlling a colonial area, the occupied people have a
result to
> > > respond to war with war, and terror with terror.
> > >
> > > Point not the finger of blame, Mr. Sharon, for you are responsible for
> > > suicide bombers. And they will not stop until Israel itself faces
defeat.
> > > Suicide bombers will be Sharon's legacy to Israel. May he rest in
peace.
> > >
> > > Contact info: Andy Martin, radio talk show host
> > > 1340wpbr.com
> > > Tel. (561) 833-6917
> > > P.O. Box 1132, Palm Beach, FL 33480
> > > Also: andymartin.com
> > >
> > > Please feel free to duplicate and forward this commentary
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>


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