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Dear Moonirah, wa alekum es salaam. Firstly, please allow me to apologise about the reference to the Welsh expatriate worker. I misread the initial message and send my utmost apology. I misread the original message to mean that you were a Welsh expatriate who had visited Kuwait. Obviously this was not the case, but I maintain that the references I made between the comparison between Arab and especially non Arab/non Western migrant workers in Kuwait are still equally valid. You stated, "My reference to Egyptians was regarding those murdered in Iraq 1990-1991." As far as I am aware at some point during the 1980's the Mukhabarat (Iraqi Intelligence) established an Egyptian directorate headed by an Egyptian expatriate to monitor the activities of the Egyptian expatriate community in Iraq. Perhaps they were involved in the murders of Egyptians in Iraq between 1990 and 1991. If they were I am afraid I have know knowledge of it. However If my memory serves me correct their were numerous incidents of violent clashes between Egyptian migrant workers and demobilised Iraqi soldiers, during the period 1988-1991. The causes of these were in some cases anger at Egyptians taking jobs which these unemployed demobilised soldiers felt should be reserved for themselves. Yet the vast majority of the violent clashes between Iraqi demobilised soldiers and migrant Egyptian workers surrounded "honour killings," when they discovered that their wives, girlfriends or sisters had been involved with Egyptian migrant workers while they were away at the front. I in no way approve these clashes and regret their occurrence. It must be noted however that such occurrences were not unique to Iraq and have been repeated throughout history and throughout the world. For example at the end of World War Two in Britain when many demobilised British soldiers returned home to discover local rumours and gossip that their wives, finances or girlfriends at been involved with American servicemen stationed in Britain, while they had been fighting in Europe, North Africa or the Far East. Moreover these isolated incidents do not undermine the point which I originally stated, which was that Egyptian migrant workers were not physically forced out of Iraq en masse and were better treated and had greater rights then were migrant workers in Kuwait were were ethnically cleansed from the emirate after 1991. You further state, "Whilst in Kuwait I was always accompanied [Moonirah] by a Makhram and my Muslim Kuwaiti contacts - none of us visit clubs, or houses if alcohol present." I never implied you personally engaged in the above activities, I was merely giving a generalised (possibly and regretfully stereotypical) impression of British expatriate workers in the Gulf, from my personal experience as a member of many of these British expatriate clubs as a British citizen who interacted with these individuals. You further state you are a supporter of INDICT. I must concur with Peter Brook's observations in his initial reply to this thread that it is doubtful that Saddam would ever actually be but on trial. When Saddam is removed it will either be by natural causes, by a violent coup or by a by a popular revolution. It is sheer fallacy to believe he would ever be caught alive and tried in a court of law. I am aware as you state that, "INDICT SADDAM, based in London under Indict Ltd was founded by Iraqi-exiles" and that it is headed by "British Member of Parliament Ann Clwyd." I am also aware of many Iraqi members of INDICT who are dissatisfied at its slow progress given that amount of evidence long at its disposal and in particular at Ann Clwyd who supports the maintains of TOTAL sanctions on all Iraqi's not on SMART sanctions on the regime, and who treats Iraqi members of INDICT in a patronising and demeaning fashion. The only personal criticism I have of INDICT is that it does not seek to try all individuals guilty of crimes against humanity with regards to the Iraqi people. Notice INDICT will not pursue a policy seeking to try the regime and the US and UK governments for war crimes against the Iraqi people, such as sanction, the illegal daily bombing campaign, the burying of Iraqi soldiers alive in Kuwait and the massacring of fleeing unarmed Iraqi conscripts (who didn't want to be in Kuwait in the first place) on the highway to death who were obeying the US and UK's governments command to withdraw from Kuwait. You can find these war crimes listed by Ramsey Clark at this web site: http://deoxy.org/wc/warcrim2.htm INDICT sole usefulness is if it is part of a campaign to tighten sanctions on the regime while lifting them on the Iraqi people. Yet Ann Clwyd, (although not necessarily Iraqi members of INDICT who want the tightening of sanctions on the regime only), wants maintainance of total sanctions. INDICT's noble purpose is exploited by the US and UK government not as part of a policy of replacing total genocidal sanctions against Iraq in place of smart sanctions that target the regime, as a ploy to label Saddam rightly as a war criminal merely to demonise all Iraqi's in general to justify the maintenance of genocidal sanctions. After all one cannot ever justify to ones domestic public opinion to lift or relax sanctions on a country no matter how genocidal their affect if the head of state of that country is a war criminal. Your prime concern is obviously for the 605 missing Kuwaiti's. Please forgive me for noting this, but CASI list is an e mail list for those interested in the Campaign Against Sanctions on Iraq not the Campaign for continuing genocide against Iraq until the fate of the Kuwait 605 are revealed. You will stop at nothing until their where about or fate is revealed. In fact your web site proudly proclaims, "SANCTIONS CANNOT BE LIFTED UNTIL THIS ISSUE IS RESOLVED ." Do you seriously think that the 5000 Iraqi children that die every month from sanctions know either the location or fate of the Kuwait 605. Of course they don't, only one individual knows that and that individual is a war criminal (by your own admission) who does not care anything about the fate of 5000 Iraqi children a month let alone a mere 605 Kuwaiti's. Your website emphasises how important the pain is felt in Kuwait from the loss of 605 Kuwaiti's which is the equivalent of "60.000 British citizens held for a decade by Saddam in Iraq." However you must understand that sanctions lead to the death of 5000 children a month, which is the equivalent given for the sake of argument that Iraq's population is 20 million and Kuwaiti's is 2 million, the unnecessary death of 500 Kuwaiti's a month or 6000 Kuwaiti's a year for the last tens years for the crimes of one individual. Please tell me Moonirah is this justice or genocide? Salaam Hadi. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a discussion list run by the Campaign Against Sanctions on Iraq For removal from list, email firstname.lastname@example.org Full details of CASI's various lists can be found on the CASI website: http://welcome.to/casi